Exit interview: Laura Kavanagh on being tough enough to break the glass ceiling at the FDNY

On Aug. 7, Laura Kavanagh will leave her post as New York City Fire Department commissioner, the first woman to lead the 159 year-old agency. As the head of the largest fire department in the country, Kavanagh oversaw changes that diversified the FDNY’s recruitment processes, ensuring historical cohorts of female graduates and promotions for leaders of color.

During her tenure as commissioner, Kavanagh had been scrutinized for her age, gender and experience. As the first female civilian executive to lead the department, she was a self-described “unusual” choice for the job, but later said she was the most qualified to take on the role. Yet throughout her 10 years at the department, from assistant commissioner to deputy commissioner to finally commissioner, some of her biggest feats included securing significant contractual wages for front-line workers, bringing the FDNY up to speed with new data tools and technology, and taking bold measures to tackle lithium-ion battery fires.

In the days following her resignation announcement, Kavanagh said she looks forward to resting before declaring her next venture.

City & State caught up with Kavanagh at our 40 In Their 40s event, where she was a keynote speaker, to learn about her proudest moments working at the department and the legacy she hopes to impart for future women leading the FDNY. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

What are you most proud of accomplishing during your tenure at the FDNY?

It’s a lot, you know, 10 years is a lot to fit in. So I’m sure I’m leaving something out. But I’d say, philosophically, I’ve always put our members first. And I’m proud of that. I think I’ve never ever broken from that. That’s where I started from. It was being able to enact some of their biggest contractual wages, especially for EMS, because they were underpaid. Being able to provide sort of a greater level of professionalism that the department deserves through technology and data that they really haven’t had access to before, which literally makes them safer. I think definitely growing the fire safety education efforts, and especially tackling out the lithium-ion batteries, which is sort of like a once in a century happening. The causes of fires have pretty much been the same, as long as we’ve been tracking them, so for something to come out of nowhere and be this major No. 1 cause of fire deaths in the city is extraordinary. We had to take extraordinary measures to combat that, and the deaths have, fingers crossed, gone down this year, so we know what we’re doing is working. I’d also say making a lot of firsts, that I hope continues in the department. But really, I tried to make the job of commissioner advocating for the members first, for safety, and also for the city that I love so much.

What kind of legacy do you hope to leave behind?

I hope that the next commissioner will know that I raised the bar. The expectation is one: You spend time with the membership, you know how they feel and you put the front-line workers first. Two: that you fight on every level for them – city, state and federal. You are their advocate, you are their voice, you do have the pulpit of the largest fire department in the country, and I want them to use it. And I am always pushing the envelope. We should never accept what we’re given. We should demand what we want because we are at the top of the profession. And so I hope that some of my legacy of being a first can just open the door for others to come.

In your Medium piece, you detailed that you wrestled with your decision for months, given your profound love for the department. Yet, what pushed you to the point where you decided to leave?

I think it’s a few things, but actually the single biggest one that people forget, because for a few years I’ve been in the public eye, but I was first deputy commissioner for four years before (becoming commissioner). So for me, I’m at about seven years of 24/7. And I’ve always believed that leaders should move on, almost before they’re ready, you still want to be at 100% when you leave. So for me, it was the confluence of both. I have a lot of family stuff coming up, and I’ve been missing that. My family’s been really supportive over these years, but how many years can you ask them to step back for your job, and the fact that I did feel like I’ve accomplished a couple of these major goals and that for me I needed to move to a place where I couldn’t do 100% as it wouldn't be fair, and I would never do a job like this. So it was a very hard decision to make, you know I loved them, and it’s totally bittersweet to move on, but you always feel like you want to accomplish more right, you always feel like it’s never done. I’ll certainly miss the things that I had to set down and pass on to someone else. But you know, my assessment was that now was the time. I’m actually gone for a few weeks this month anyway for my family, so I felt like to split my time between them and the department would be too hard for me.

Earlier this month, New York City Mayor Eric Adams said it was a “sexist belief” that the FDNY’s male-dominated environment had anything to do with your departure. What are your thoughts on that comment?

I mean, it certainly has not led to my decision to leave. I think I’ve proven over and over that I’m tough enough to do the job, that I’ve really been able to let some of the things that come with being a female leader, which I knew going into it, really roll off my back. And so that’s definitely not the reason. I certainly think the mayor and I have some agreement that it’s complicated to be a woman in power. So, these days, it’s especially more complicated when you’re first. It’s more complicated when you’re in an agency that change is being asked of, and you’re the first, it’s a lot of change at once. And you know, it is still a 99% male work environment, right? It was definitely an element of it that’s complicated. But I’d also say, I’m definitely not leaving because of the way the men treat me. Most of them are really wonderful, there are just a few people that aren’t and that’s par for the course.

But as the first woman to lead the department, you might have faced certain circumstances that your predecessors didn’t experience. How did those circumstances influence your time as a leader? Do you think some things could have been different?

I mean, I think it’s made me tougher. I’m not one for regrets, it doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t go back – always in my whole career – and maybe change things at times. But I wouldn’t change the whole of it. You learn from your mistakes, you learn from your victories. I think it’s those things that have made me tougher. So I think that I’ve left a long legacy, and I hope that I’ve shown that women can do it. I really would say that, while the element of women and leadership is certainly complicated, I really want to keep fighting for that outside of the department. I speak to so many other female firsts, and they do describe similar experiences of their tenures being shorter, because they do feel they have to work harder. And that they do face some things that their male counterparts don’t that they just want support with. In some ways, I think we don’t mind that we’re different. And I think that there’s an argument that leadership of both forms, male and female, is important, especially for public life. So my real passion, I think, will be to try to help the next generation of leaders and other women being firsts to say, “This is what it’s going to be like, it’s going to be different”. And that’s OK, here are some of the tools you can use and some of the obstacles you’re going to face that I want you to get ready for.

What kind of support did you receive? And what kind of better support systems do you want to set up for the next woman in charge?

I mean, I am really lucky. I have a very, very strong group of women in my family. I have a strong group of friends. I think those things keep you sane, frankly, in any tough leadership job, and especially when you need someone to give you an honest answer. You need them to say to you that you’re doing something right, or something wrong, and you need it to come from a place of love and security about you. So I think you really need to have that. And they’ve always been my sounding board. I always go to them to say, am I doing the right thing, even if I feel like what I’m experiencing might be because I’m a woman. You always want to check yourself on that. I think for me, and any woman, I advise them to have a really strong community around them that can support them through tough times and give them perspective, and let them reflect, grow and change in a safe space.

Did you have that support within the Adams administration?

Yeah, absolutely. I would say the group of women you saw at my swearing in, we’ve stayed in touch. Keechant (Sewell, the former NYPD commissioner,) and I have stayed in touch. The women of City Hall took me out (the week of July 22) for dinner and that was really wonderful. So I do feel like there’s a lot of support that I’ve been given. I know a lot of people have asked about support from the mayor, he has given me all the support a boss can give you. There were some things about being first that no one talked about. And that’s something we talked about a lot before I went into the position because having been in an agency earlier, and watching other firsts not just in my agency, I knew that it had its own challenges, and I talked about those.

What are some things you might want to protect the next woman from who may lead the FDNY?

I’d certainly say a few things. One, there are just some basic measures you can take that are available to you today. When I first got into the job, I didn’t want the extra security, I didn’t want those layers. I liked being able to kind of move about on my own and talk face to face to members. But I would say to the next woman, those things are there to make you feel safe to be able to do your job. And the reality is you get a lot more sort of scary things that happen to you, especially online, on the internet, which is sort of notorious for the way it treats women. So I think just saying, one, it’s going to happen and just wanting to prepare her and let her know that it’s not about her, this is what every woman in leadership has to face. It’s not personal, so ready yourself for that. (But also,) take advantage. Don’t try to be shy or unassuming or say things like, “I don’t want to be a burden.” I think a lot of us feel like if we ask for something, we might be seen as a diva. You need those things, not only do men have them to do their jobs, but I think as women, when you do get those unusual threats, you should take advantage of the resources the city does give you to make you feel safe. When you feel safe, there’s more you can give to the job.

What kind of glass ceilings were able to break throughout your tenure?

This one woman the other day in another male-dominated field said to me, when you break the glass ceiling, you’re full of shards. And what you hope for the next woman is that she can go through it without that. I hope that it does get a little bit easier with each woman who does it. It gets more normalized, meaning you change the face of what leadership looks like and hopefully that makes it a little bit easy for the next person.

Do you think you were able to break some of those glass ceilings for women of color as well?

I mean, I’ve made a lot of firsts. My executive officer and a number of the women in EMS that we’ve promoted are also the first Black women in their position – usually the first woman and the first Black woman. My life and my circle of family has always been one of diversity in all forms. And we’ve always believed that you don’t get there alone. You do get that people encourage you. There’s this notion that only one woman can succeed. Nothing can be more wrong. I think anyone who tells you that is actually trying to divide women. We only succeed together, and I certainly tried to do that.

Is there anything we can learn about your successor?

Everything I’ve talked about with the mayor, I would keep between the mayor. I have certainly shared my thoughts extensively, and wish them luck. I talked about not just certain candidates, but also the qualities I think that you need to look for, because this is an unusual job. It’s a difficult job. Even outside of being a woman, you go through life and death, you have to break heartbreaking news to families, you have to be on TV, you have to face a lot of criticism, but still be optimistic and still be in touch with the members. And it’s a big place, it’d be hard to talk to all 17,000 members, but I do my best. So those are the sorts of things I shared – what I actually think it takes to do the job day to day to whoever they ultimately choose.

Will you be staying in the Adams administration?

I am taking a long break! They very generously wanted me to stay or come back, and I will certainly reassess. But I need to take some time, and also take a little vacation after that. Because it’s been about four years since I’m taking a vacation, and then I’ll reassess. I never think it’s a good idea to decide your next step when you’re in the middle of an experience like this one. A little rest, and I will certainly let you guys know when I decide.